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Ainseri
13/07/2012, 02:18 PM
Hey,

I've been trying to come up with an idea for a realistic and persistent economic system for deployment in a strict roleplay gamemode. I think it'd certainly be a new and interesting dynamic to gameplay and would provide a fun and challenging element to the balance of of players' wealth. As of current, all roleplay gamemodes that I have seen just inject money into the world from nowhere at random times, and it disappears into thin air at other places.

It'd be so much more interesting and dynamic if when someone was getting rich, it meant that someone somewhere else was losing money. All money comes from somewhere and goes somewhere. A true, natural and (hopefully) self-sustaining economy is born. Stocks, inflation, and other natural elements to the economy would provide players with many roleplay opportunities based around finance.

I'm also excited for this because it opens the doors for proper taxes, with tax evasion and such. Drug dealers will have to set up business fronts to launder their money, or they risk being fined and arrested and having their operation compromised. If these businesses draw too much attention for any reason, and get audited by the tax agency, close investigation may reveal discrepancies in tax payments. This opens up a vast majority of roleplay opportunities for organized crime. And that's without even getting started on counterfeiting money, insurance and so forth...

However, I'm wondering how to plan out this system. What considerations to be taken into account, feature ideas and potential problems do you see?

X3nZ
13/07/2012, 02:21 PM
One thing you should take into consideration is,

When you are setting your economy up, make sure you don't mess your prices up, like for example, I seen this one server that had a 8 Room Luxury House for 40k, but a 2 room bedsit for 65k.

If you were to buy a 2 Room Bedsit IRL, it would be much cheaper than an 8 Room Luxury.

I don't know if this really helps ya, but I figured I'd drop this in.

Ainseri
13/07/2012, 02:28 PM
One thing you should take into consideration is,

When you are setting your economy up, make sure you don't mess your prices up, like for example, I seen this one server that had a 8 Room Luxury House for 40k, but a 2 room bedsit for 65k.

If you were to buy a 2 Room Bedsit IRL, it would be much cheaper than an 8 Room Luxury.

I don't know if this really helps ya, but I figured I'd drop this in.

I think you misunderstand. This is more about the persistent and physical flow of currency between players (and virtual entities/organizations where necessary) in the city. Properties that will be constructed will most likely be sold with consideration of the cost of materials, manpower and equipment/vehicles required to construct it. Properties that are already constructed will likely be owned by the government or one or two designated real estate agencies and then sold at a price dependent on the location and the provisions it has, such as whether or not it has a garage, how many rooms it has, capacity for appliances, and location in the city.

Y_Less
13/07/2012, 02:47 PM
Existing systems inject and remove money because that is a better model of the real world. Let's say you have 1000 players on at any one time - that's still less than 0.001% of the San Andreas population, let alone the world! Taxes come from other people, there are tourists, out-of-towners, multi-nationals and all sorts of other things that result in money, as you say, being injected and disappearing. If you only have a fixed pool it will eventually be very hard for new players to do anything at all.

Ainseri
13/07/2012, 02:58 PM
Existing systems inject and remove money because that is a better model of the real world. Let's say you have 1000 players on at any one time - that's still less than 0.001% of the San Andreas population, let alone the world! Taxes come from other people, there are tourists, out-of-towners, multi-nationals and all sorts of other things that result in money, as you say, being injected and disappearing. If you only have a fixed pool it will eventually be very hard for new players to do anything at all.

Factors can of course be extrapolated where necessary. The goal is to create a realistic representation of the economic model present in America, not necessarily a fully in-depth simulation. One of the things I'm struggling with is where new players' initial funds will come from. I'm pretty sure they'll come out of the government's budget as some kind of unemployment benefit or something, but how can I make sure that their budget doesn't get run dry if too many players register but do not play? Also, I love the idea that new players have to work to make something of themselves. The American Dream! Fuck refunds, and grinding on checkpoint-based missions for cash.

Finn
13/07/2012, 03:34 PM
Factors can of course be extrapolated where necessary. The goal is to create a realistic representation of the economic model present in America, not necessarily a fully in-depth simulation. One of the things I'm struggling with is where new players' initial funds will come from. I'm pretty sure they'll come out of the government's budget as some kind of unemployment benefit or something, but how can I make sure that their budget doesn't get run dry if too many players register but do not play? Also, I love the idea that new players have to work to make something of themselves. The American Dream! Fuck refunds, and grinding on checkpoint-based missions for cash.
The starting wealth represents the wealth your character has made before it was registered, it doesn't come out of nowhere. When you create a new character, let's say a 25 year old male, you skip 25 years of your characters life and you expect him to not have done anything at all during those years?

Ainseri
13/07/2012, 03:42 PM
The starting wealth represents the wealth your character has made before it was registered, it doesn't come out of nowhere. When you create a new character, let's say a 25 year old male, you skip 25 years of your characters life and you expect him to not have done anything at all during those years?

That's not my point. My point is, where does that money tie into the persistent economy of the city? If every time a new player registers, $25,000 is added into circulation, there's going to be a lot of problems.

Mauzen
13/07/2012, 04:03 PM
I once wrote about something like that, in form of an "item-based" economy with different economy levels. http://forum.sa-mp.com/showthread.php?t=256829
If realized the right way this would create a nearly closed circuit. The open end at level 1 could be closed by loans paid by the owner.

Ainseri
13/07/2012, 04:14 PM
I once wrote about something like that, in form of an "item-based" economy with different economy levels. http://forum.sa-mp.com/showthread.php?t=256829
If realized the right way this would create a nearly closed circuit. The open end at level 1 could be closed by loans paid by the owner.

Exactly what I've been thinking of: that part is simple, it's the money/currency part I can't decide on.

Finn
13/07/2012, 07:34 PM
That's not my point. My point is, where does that money tie into the persistent economy of the city? If every time a new player registers, $25,000 is added into circulation, there's going to be a lot of problems.
Well, I just explained how the money comes in the server RP-wise. lol

The easiest way I could think of is the following:

You could spread the spawned money into the base prices of everything and every time something is bought decrease the percentage from the total spawned money count.

i.e.
House prices += 2.5% of spawned money
Vehicle prices += 2.5% of spawned money
Weapon prices += 0.5% of spawned money
Food += 0.05% of spawned money

1.
2 players register and each one "spawns" $5,000.

Spawned money = $5,000 * 2 = $10,000

House prices += $10,000 / 100 * 2.5 = +$250
Vehicle prices += $10,000 / 100 * 2.5 = +$250
Weapon prices += $10,000 / 100 * 0.5 = +$50
Food += $10,000 / 100 * 0.05 = +$5

A house used to cost $15,000, now it costs $15,250.
A vehicle used to cost $5,000, now it costs $5,250.
A weapon used to cost $250, now it costs $300.
A meal used to cost $50, now it costs $55.

2.
3 vehicles, 5 houses, 100 weapons and 100 meals are bought by random players.
= (2.5 * 3) + (5 * 2.5) + (100 * 0.5) + (100 * 0.05)
= 7.5 + 12.5 + 50 + 5
= 75%

Spawned money -= 75% = 10,000 - (10,000 / 100 * 75)= $2,500

House prices += $2,500 / 100 * 2.5 = +$63
Vehicle prices += $2,500 / 100 * 2.5 = +$63
Weapon prices += $2,500 / 100 * 0.5 = +$13
Food += $2,500 / 100 * 0.05 = +$1

A house now costs $15,063.
A vehicle now costs $5,063.
A weapon now costs $263.
A meal now costs $51.

3.
3 vehicles, 5 houses, 100 weapons and 100 meals are bought by random players.
= (2.5 * 3) + (5 * 2.5) + (100 * 0.5) + (100 * 0.05)
= 7.5 + 12.5 + 50 + 5
= 75%

Spawned money -= 75% = 2,500 - (2,500 / 100 * 75)= $625

4.
2 players register and each one "spawns" $5,000.

Spawned money += 2 * $5,000 = $625 + $10,000 = $10,625

House prices += $10,625/ 100 * 2.5 = +$266
Vehicle prices += $10,625 / 100 * 2.5 = +$266
Weapon prices += $10,625 / 100 * 0.5 = +$53
Food += $10,625 / 100 * 0.05 = +$5

A house now costs $15,266.
A vehicle now costs $5,266.
A weapon now costs $303.
A meal now costs $55.

This idea stops working when all houses, all vehicles and all of everything is already bought and only small products (meals, gasoline, raw materials etc.) which cannot be resold by players are left. So easiest way would be just drop the whole idea of having a 100% realistic economy and just to simulate it as good as possible.

BlueX
14/07/2012, 12:54 AM
Existing systems inject and remove money because that is a better model of the real world. Let's say you have 1000 players on at any one time - that's still less than 0.001% of the San Andreas population, let alone the world! Taxes come from other people, there are tourists, out-of-towners, multi-nationals and all sorts of other things that result in money, as you say, being injected and disappearing. If you only have a fixed pool it will eventually be very hard for new players to do anything at all.

Yes, we can apply this economy, but we have to think that our players are only one X of the population of that city, to have a positive balance we have to think things through, not simply change the prices of wages in the script, for example: The faction government usually only contains its members, Securities, Mayor, Driver, etc ...
In order to apply this economy would have to have two parties, Republicans and Democrats and so could make voting laws, because if there are no parties they could abuse of power, but nevertheless it is necessary vigilance of administrators, but let's see another example, to apply certain laws would be necessary to make a voting system, imaginane that there is a command called /taxes,so the mayor could use this command when he wished, so my conclusion to apply a system of economy we have to think too much, I do not say make many calculations, because the economy works in statistics, but let's see, would have to first think about how we could apply the system, then we would have to think how would work the economy, anyway, I do not think that is something hard, but I know that has to think with time.

Mento
18/07/2012, 06:51 PM
Giving a player a start amount, low of course, is necessary. It is necessary for keeping the player in the game and also allowing money to flow. A player with nothing can not do anything to contribute to the economy, when a player starts he will probably need a license, rent a vehicle, etc. Giving him no budget to start his life out, would only make the economy even worse. I think the best way for this to start, is supply and demand. Example, when the server first starts out, you make it in a island or somewhere remote, not a large city with lots of buildings. This gives players a opportunity to build, literally build, a business from wood, mapping maybe, but somehow incorporated roleplay or in game features into it. Now that the player has a business, he will go pick plants, take their seeds, and plant, and so on. This now creates a economy, as this player has a business that sells x bananas... He can set the price, and money will begin to flow. I think starting out in one of the three big cities will only restrict how players can spend their money. The economy will only work if players are spending their money, because they need to. So along with the economy and supply and demand, you'll need to set up hunger, sleep, sickness, and other realistic systems that will force a player to spend his given, let's say 50 rocks, or whatever the currency may be. But again, the problem with this whole idea is, many players in SAMP refuse to work, or find it very boring, so making a job interesting and fun for the player is also a big factor, most players will just join, realize they must work to actually buy a house, car, etc. and they will leave. This only makes it harder for the economy to grow, as no one will be spending their money, so no business will be gaining profit, and no profit means no currency circulation, and the only way I see the economy idea working is money circulation.

Makaveli93
31/07/2012, 12:40 AM
I thought about this idea before, but I gave up later due to the fact that the server population is too low to fund the government through taxes, and the money transactions wouldn't be that often as in real life. Unless you can create a realistic artificial money income to the server that wouldn't cause inflation and general economy fuck up, it's impossible. To have a realistic economy, it would mean that you would have to have central bank that would loan the money to other banks, that would control the amount of money in circulation and that would have to change monetary politic from time to time, making it restrictive or expansive by increasing/decreasing the interest rates for banks, the amount of money and similar.

Of course, you can make an easier type of economy for the server, but still you need a way to control the amount of money on the server, and maintain stable prices on the server. Unless your tax is 50 percent and you have 200-300 players average online, even the government couldn't be funded by that amount of money. So, basically, you need to find a way to create an artificial money income technique.


Well, I just explained how the money comes in the server RP-wise. lol

The easiest way I could think of is the following:

You could spread the spawned money into the base prices of everything and every time something is bought decrease the percentage from the total spawned money count.

i.e.
House prices += 2.5% of spawned money
Vehicle prices += 2.5% of spawned money
Weapon prices += 0.5% of spawned money
Food += 0.05% of spawned money

1.
2 players register and each one "spawns" $5,000.

Spawned money = $5,000 * 2 = $10,000

House prices += $10,000 / 100 * 2.5 = +$250
Vehicle prices += $10,000 / 100 * 2.5 = +$250
Weapon prices += $10,000 / 100 * 0.5 = +$50
Food += $10,000 / 100 * 0.05 = +$5

A house used to cost $15,000, now it costs $15,250.
A vehicle used to cost $5,000, now it costs $5,250.
A weapon used to cost $250, now it costs $300.
A meal used to cost $50, now it costs $55.

2.
3 vehicles, 5 houses, 100 weapons and 100 meals are bought by random players.
= (2.5 * 3) + (5 * 2.5) + (100 * 0.5) + (100 * 0.05)
= 7.5 + 12.5 + 50 + 5
= 75%

Spawned money -= 75% = 10,000 - (10,000 / 100 * 75)= $2,500

House prices += $2,500 / 100 * 2.5 = +$63
Vehicle prices += $2,500 / 100 * 2.5 = +$63
Weapon prices += $2,500 / 100 * 0.5 = +$13
Food += $2,500 / 100 * 0.05 = +$1

A house now costs $15,063.
A vehicle now costs $5,063.
A weapon now costs $263.
A meal now costs $51.

3.
3 vehicles, 5 houses, 100 weapons and 100 meals are bought by random players.
= (2.5 * 3) + (5 * 2.5) + (100 * 0.5) + (100 * 0.05)
= 7.5 + 12.5 + 50 + 5
= 75%

Spawned money -= 75% = 2,500 - (2,500 / 100 * 75)= $625

4.
2 players register and each one "spawns" $5,000.

Spawned money += 2 * $5,000 = $625 + $10,000 = $10,625

House prices += $10,625/ 100 * 2.5 = +$266
Vehicle prices += $10,625 / 100 * 2.5 = +$266
Weapon prices += $10,625 / 100 * 0.5 = +$53
Food += $10,625 / 100 * 0.05 = +$5

A house now costs $15,266.
A vehicle now costs $5,266.
A weapon now costs $303.
A meal now costs $55.

This idea stops working when all houses, all vehicles and all of everything is already bought and only small products (meals, gasoline, raw materials etc.) which cannot be resold by players are left. So easiest way would be just drop the whole idea of having a 100% realistic economy and just to simulate it as good as possible.


I don't think this would work. I'm kinda tired right now so I don't know if I'm thinking right, but this would just mess up the economy even worse. The price increase would cause the inflation, at the end, making money worthless.

In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time.[1] When the general price level rises, each unit of currency buys fewer goods and services. Consequently, inflation also reflects an erosion in the purchasing power of money a loss of real value in the internal medium of exchange and unit of account in the economy. - Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation

If you ever played on San Andreas Roleplay (back in '08 ), weapons, houses and other's prices slowly went up, and after 6 months a SPAS 12 that costed around 10k, then costed around 70k. This is a SAMP server example. The whole inflation resulted in everyone being millionaires and the amount of goods you could buy with a million was relatively small, excluding the script wise items like cars, 24/7 items and food.

Sniper Kitty
31/07/2012, 02:11 AM
Why don't you set the spawn money to 0, make prices dynamic to players (allow them to set their own prices), and allow players to set how much their owned job pays (If the job runs out of bank then don't allow players to accept the job)?

linuxthefish
01/08/2012, 01:55 AM
This has been a ongoing secret project of mine for a few months. Anyone wish to PM?

NinjaChicken
13/08/2012, 03:27 AM
ok well ive been running a RP server for about 6 months now and well it sucks now, because all my player have about 200mill eACH! now im going to reset it and i need someone to help me make the prices

eg what do you think a good price is for all the cars? like e.g. Sultan: 400k or something please reply with as many car prices as possible and how much money do you think you should get when you spawn??

GarenaPhilippines
13/08/2012, 03:49 AM
I can help you :)

And i can also join your server.

Give me the IP.

GarenaPhilippines
13/08/2012, 03:56 AM
Server IP?

NinjaChicken
13/08/2012, 03:58 AM
yea here it is samp.sentrogaming.net but im going to reset it an re do all the dealerships etc.

GarenaPhilippines
13/08/2012, 04:39 AM
Im ingame...

Go ingame.

My ingame name is Kevin Brown

GarenaPhilippines
13/08/2012, 10:16 AM
Shadow come ingame :)

ddnbb
13/08/2012, 07:51 PM
Sorry, but to imitate REALISTIC economy, you have to be online 24/7 and there have to be population of 1million... And there is blenty other factors that makes this impossible, trust me on that. Sorry to disapoint you, but this is not possible, you only have to simulate realistic economy as good as possible.

Eony
14/08/2012, 10:38 PM
Hey,
[...]

As of current, all roleplay gamemodes that I have seen just inject money into the world from nowhere at random times, and it disappears into thin air at other places.

It'd be so much more interesting and dynamic if when someone was getting rich, it meant that someone somewhere else was losing money. All money comes from somewhere and goes somewhere. A true, natural and (hopefully) self-sustaining economy is born. Stocks, inflation, and other natural elements to the economy would provide players with many roleplay opportunities based around finance.

[...]

However, I'm wondering how to plan out this system. What considerations to be taken into account, feature ideas and potential problems do you see?

There is a roleplay server with such kind of economy. Where stuff does not come from nowhere, and does not go anywhere. It just hasn't been released yet, it's a 3 years work script.

Here you got a few examples :

- Fuel is extracted from fuel sources, transported to gas stations by players, and then bought by customers.
- Vehicles are made out of car parts, once again transported to the car factories by players.
- Items are crafted in factories out of raw material obtained by either Farmers, Miners, or whatever, depending on the type of the item (Food, electronics ..). They are either crafted industrially or manually (By players), each item has it's own recipe (Quantities of each raw material), the raw material is transported by players to factories, as well as final products are transported to stores by them.

And obviously, jobs are obtained when getting employed by player-owned companies.

This creates a real flow of items and money, a real economy, and jobs with an actual usefulness.

_________________________________

Now the thing is, such realistic economies should be extremely well thought in order to work properly, wich is certainly the reason why every single roleplay server in SA:MP sticks up to the standard economy solution : Stuff coming from nowhere.

Anyways, I wish you the best with your project.

__________________________________________________ _______________________

Sorry, but to imitate REALISTIC economy, you have to be online 24/7 and there have to be population of 1million... And there is blenty other factors that makes this impossible, trust me on that.

No need of huge population, no need of being online 24/7, you just need a good structure.

you only have to simulate realistic economy as good as possible.

That's the only thing you can do in a game really, try and do the best you can, but it'll never be perfect.

ddnbb
16/08/2012, 12:39 AM
That sounds great, but the economy wont be the same as real life, no matter how close the system is with in real life. The population makes the economy, the amount of people doing what, and where, matters. What defines different prices of everything, is people and demand.

It's hard to get started too unless you get 50-100 players straight away, if the economy is that complicated. Anyway it sounds unique and awesome script, but all i have to say is that mostly its all imitating in real life. Besides, its just a game where people are having fun, not living a life in a virtual world and deliver that boring gas just to make "living". :D Peace.

Think
18/08/2012, 02:03 PM
Well it isnt that old of an topic.. BUMP!

I was thinking, something that might work.. Ill keep it simple with small numbers, cause it can get confusing very quick if you use larger numbers..

So you got 10 players ingame on average, but the city needs 1000 (Small numbers!!)
You got a percentage of the city actually playing (Will be more to 0.005% in the real world scenario) in this case 1% so if you can simulate the other 99% being "alive" and spending money

Take the average of a player eating, sleeping, buying cars and simulate the other 99% doing that with small changes.
The average money spent on a meal is 50$ so you'll let the other 99% of the population pay around 40 ~ 60$ for a meal.

You can add in the unemployment issue for new players, the other 99% has a percentage of unemployed citizens that would be in balance to the actual players being unemployed who also need money from the government but still spend it.
With another pattern but you could work that in.

The government would get taxes from both the 'NPC' 99% and the living 1% giving you loads of money as government.
The government has to pay an amount of money to defence, education, charity(shit like 3rth world country's)

You could even add in a system where you start out having no bridges or large buildings and you get players to work there, moving stuff and bit for bit the bridge would be build up. This would create jobs as construction worker for the players, take money away from the government (Cause they ordered it) and makes it less expensive for someone to drive to work cause they now have a fully functional bridge.


Excuse me if I dont make any sense, but I cant be bothered to proof-read all this in the current heat

jameskmonger
08/09/2012, 03:05 AM
How can you have inflation, or any money in the economy at all for that matter, if none is ever injected?

sim_sima
17/09/2012, 02:49 PM
You have to make sure that the public system gets money. But also pay money back to the players.
When players get their pay cheque, they pay taxes. Those money goes to the public. Make sure that those money don't all stay there. Pay them back like welfare etc.
Also it would be a good idea making each job like a firm/company, which has an amount of money that goes to employees, materials etc. and is earned by the players working for the company. Then make those companies pay company taxes, which goess to the public.
Those were jusst the most important parts, but of course it has to be planned very accurate and in some ways sufisticated.