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Old 25/10/2019, 10:10 AM   #91
Kalcor
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Default Re: Is it still worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by d3Pedro View Post
Instead of releasing and opening source could you not get a few more people to be involved in the development so perhaps they can continue further even if you retire?
You need GTA:SA modding experience to work on samp. That's a rare thing in 2019.

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Originally Posted by Gforcez View Post
I know a lot of people are asking this, but I don't think we ever got an "official" answer. What's going to happen with the DL branch of SA:MP? Are there any plans to include that functionality in the main line of SA:MP versions or is it going to be a seperate thing for the time being?

I would love to see the security update(s) that could become 0.3.9 be mixed with the DL version of SA:MP.
I don't think there's enough interest in modeling to push DL out as the main branch. There have been no updates to the blender scripts, no tools developed.
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Old 25/10/2019, 10:19 AM   #92
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Default Re: Is it still worth it?

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Originally Posted by Kalcor View Post
I don't think there's enough interest in modeling to push DL out as the main branch. There have been no updates to the blender scripts, no tools developed.
There is interest, it even exists in many large servers. Sometimes there is not enough elementary opportunity to add a missing skin for a character or a sprite for textdraw.
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Old 25/10/2019, 10:21 AM   #93
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Default Re: Is it still worth it?

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Originally Posted by Kalcor View Post
I don't think there's enough interest in modeling to push DL out as the main branch. There have been no updates to the blender scripts, no tools developed.
Could it be that the interest is lacking because it's not an official SA:MP version? Most people hold out to upgrade to a 'in development' version (the SA:MP DL version is still 'advertised' as an in development version). There's already a lot of cool things that are done with the DL version. There might not be too much development in term of tools or blender scripts, but I'm sure that if the DL features hit the main branch, that a lot more servers and developers will embrace it and do even cooler stuff with the features.
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Old 25/10/2019, 10:32 AM   #94
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Default Re: Is it still worth it?

A security update for 0.3.DL to deter cheaters would be epic too. The cluster of English servers have not been able to fully hide from cheats. We often find other communities attacking each other which is pretty sad.

I think there is interest in modeling amongst serious servers, but, not every server owner/developer knows how to 3d model which is why most modelling work gets given to people who have already mastered the tools out there who, in almost all cases, provide very good work. The now extinct Biohazard Roleplay project is an example of the above.
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Old 25/10/2019, 11:15 AM   #95
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Default Re: Is it still worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalcor View Post
0.3.7 server owners report in if you see this. Are you happy with a 0.3.7 update (0.3.9) which just updates packet IDs and memory addresses?
0.3.7 sandbox server owner reporting in. Since cheating tools are not prohibited on my server, and I quite heavily rely on the usage of YSF, this kind of an update would just require me to do a lot of work with no gained advantage. Perhaps I would even stay at 0.3.7 if that amount of work were too big.

I would welcome an update if at least something got added. These things are currently what I request:
  • Make "lights" in SetVehicleParamsEx work like "engine". 1 - permanently turned on, 0 - permanently turned off, -1 - depending on the environment (night, tunnels). Without having to use ManualVehicleEngineAndLights at all.
  • Increasing the object count to 2000 like it is in DL. Custom models or not, mapping is still popular and 1000 is too little. Since the code is already in DL, shouldn't be such an issue.
  • Make UsePlayerPedAnims per-player and changeable for anyone in the middle of the game.
  • DisableRemoteVehicleCollisions on a per-vehicle basis, and working on unoccupied vehicles as well. DisableObjectCollision would also come in handy.
  • An ability to revert the effect of a particular RemoveBuildingForPlayer (or all of them), and increasing the amount of these calls from 1000 (and without crashing the client). If the client reconnects, there should be a way of reverting these automatically, since when 501 buildings are removed and the client reconnects once, their game crashes.
  • "materialindex" in SetObjectMaterial and SetObjectMaterialText increased from 15, as there are objects with more than 16 material surfaces.
Believe it or not, I would have a use for all of these, regardless of potential desyncs. Then and only then would be the work I will need to do updating YSF justified.

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Originally Posted by Kalcor View Post
You need GTA:SA modding experience to work on samp. That's a rare thing in 2019.
Only on the client. I believe there are other experts like you that perhaps could be found, and people can learn how these things work. Memory addresses, opcodes, and stuff, many people have experimented with those.

The server is a completely different thing. I have even argued that only open-sourcing the server would be nice, as there are some security issues, long-living bugs, and missing natives and features, that can be implemented without touching the client (that's why YSF is here in the first place).

There are still many competent and dedicated programmers left here. I have even contributed to SA-MP once if you remember (0.3d skins).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalcor View Post
I don't think there's enough interest in modeling to push DL out as the main branch. There have been no updates to the blender scripts, no tools developed.
I have seen enough interest in modeling before the introduction of DL and even after it. People were importing maps, creating fully featured skins; I have even seen a semi-working horse script. The lack of interest has been created not because people simply don't want these features, but by fracturing the community this way.

Speaking as the owner of a sandbox server, I would accept any player with 0.3.7 or 0.3.DL at the same time, and since I use virtual worlds, I can make DL-only virtual worlds for those players. Such a feature is not something you choose to have or not to have, it's a feature you should be able to use if the player accepts it.

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Originally Posted by Kalcor View Post
Now here's the fucked up thing that happens. The "game" layer I designed for MTA, and source code that R* gave them, get imported in to mod_so-beit, a popular hack tool for SA-MP.

Do you know what that means? THE LARGEST USE OF THE SOURCE CODE R* GAVE TO MTA WAS TO HACK SA-MP!

What started out as a small group of developers on MTA, who were fairly professional, became extremely dirty over time. The people wanting to take down SA-MP are not concerned about breaking the law in order to do so!
Given enough time, people would reverse-engineer this stuff anyway. Perhaps it would take them more time, but here in 2019 I don't think anything would be too different if this hadn't happened. I am not denying them taking part in this, but that is a thing of the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalcor View Post
It seems just as likely that any source code given out would be used to attack SA-MP, as it would to provide useful updates.

The decision to release SA-MP's source code comes down to whether we're still in this hostile environment where people are attacking me and wanting to attack SA-MP, or whether we've moved beyond it. I would say it comes down to the size of the mod and the demand for hacking tools. Being closed source has allowed me to shuffle all the internal structures and obsolete many of the hacking tools with each release. Many of the "security" updates for SA-MP have just been me shuffling around data to throw off hacking tools.
I am sorry for partially contributing to the "hate" that had transpired, but I think myself and many other people have done things out of desperation seeing that SA-MP is not updated. Are we still in this environment? No, I don't think we are, just evident from the posts in this thread. Some people plead for updates, some understand you and your right to lose passion for development; of course there is the fair share of trolls, but comparing this to many occasions in the past, this is an honest discussion me and many other people wanted, driven by reason and not by emotions.

Recompiling the code just to change memory addresses does prevent cheats for a while, but you are a single person, while the hackers are many. Now there are server-side and even client-side anticheats, and even limited open-sourcing (or better API than the AMX plugin API) would be helpful to the developers of those and not much to the hackers (as they have already reversed engineered it all).

Last edited by IllidanS4; 25/10/2019 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 25/10/2019, 11:46 AM   #96
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Default Re: Is it still worth it?

Releasing 0.3.7 as 0.3.9 with changed addresses has no point in my opinion. Current hacks will become obsolete, but it's matter of week until new hacks appear. Currently, server-side anticheats can detect reliably 95% of all hacks, the only issues are with "client-side" hacks such as aimbots, wall hacks, locate hacks, but those will always be difficult or impossible to detect.

If however 0.3.DL was released as an official release 0.3.9 with changed addresses, then I would definitely switch to 0.3.9, because the DL feature can hook a lot of players and servers to SA-MP. Unless there are some security issues with the DL version, then I assume there is no reason to not use it.

The only downside I noticed with 0.3.DL is that the most server owners do not use HTTP downloads, making the downloading extremely slow, which could annoy some players. If it is easy to implement, I would add filtering to SA-MP client "No Downloads" (for example under "No Password"), in case some players would like to find servers without downloadable models for some reason.
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Old 25/10/2019, 11:47 AM   #97
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Default Re: Is it still worth it?

The lack of source code doesn't stop people updating. The entire mod is based on that principle.

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Originally Posted by IllidanS4 View Post
Given enough time, people would reverse-engineer this stuff anyway. Perhaps it would take them more time, but here in 2019 I don't think anything would be too different if this hadn't happened.
You didn't see all the time that was spent fending off attacks. All of the source leaks were designed to hurt this mod.
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Old 25/10/2019, 12:01 PM   #98
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Default Re: Is it still worth it?

Honestly, DL version hasn't gotten much attention simply because people are afraid of losing their playerbase considering how 'troublesome' it is for some to find out about a new update, then to install it and so on. I've had servers since 2014 and every version update would result in a big playerbase drop until people gradually figured out there's a new version, and surprisingly a big chunk of people has issues making a simple installation on their computer either due to lack of basic computer knowledge or struggling understanding English.

Because DL version isn't official and the downloads are not really "easily visible" on SAMP website, a lot of communities, including the popular ones like LS-RP or RC-RP struggled with their player base, TommyB explained his story here. So if it affected such famous communities, the lesser known communities would suffer much harsher consequences of moving to DL.

I would be switching to DL version without doubts, but the only thing pulling me back is that DL isn't recognized well throughout SA-MP as it's not an official version and there should be more attention brought to it on the main website so people can have easier time finding it for download.

There features DL version brought are doubtlessly amazing and literally game changing, the downside however is that it's not recognized well enough, and communities do not want to gamble with their playerbase as it's already not easy enough to grow a big playerbase.
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Old 25/10/2019, 12:03 PM   #99
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Default Re: Is it still worth it?

You don't start it from 2019 but you will start it from 2020
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Old 25/10/2019, 12:06 PM   #100
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Default Re: Is it still worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by niCe View Post
If however 0.3.DL was released as an official release 0.3.9 with changed addresses, then I would definitely switch to 0.3.9, because the DL feature can hook a lot of players and servers to SA-MP. Unless there are some security issues with DL version, then I assume there is no reason to not use it.
I 100 % agree. Maybe the "No Downloads" option in the client should be provided to the server without hiding the server in the listing, because as I said, I can accept players who don't want custom models, and I would be worried that if I used custom models, players could filter out my server, even if custom models aren't actually required to play on it.

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You didn't see all the time that was spent fending off attacks. All of the source leaks were designed to hurt this mod.
Sorry but this is too strong to assert. I used them to understand the code better, to help add new functions and features that aren't normally possible in SA-MP. Things like SetPlayerGravity, HideObjectForPlayer, TogglePlayerWidescreen, all these things were made possible by inspection of the existing code to understand what different memory addresses mean, which functions there are etc.

I believe people with malicious intent will be fueled by it to overcome the obstacles that are set more than people who just want to help. Without the (very old but still helpful) leak, it would take me considerably more time to reverse-engineer the server to understand what needs to be modified, perhaps to the point of me giving up, especially since there is no money in it for me, just the desire to help the community. This cannot be said for hackers, who usually work for money or for fame.

I think this proves my point - people who want to help could be deterred by these obstacles, while people dedicated to causing harm will find their way anyway. So nope, not all leaked code was and could be used by wrong-doers. I know that first-hand.

Perhaps sometimes risks should be taken if it's for the greater good. Take MEGA, torrent, proxies, Tor, and other services for example. Can they be used to cause harm or bring "evil"? Of course, but they are also immensely helpful for bringing security and anonymity to people in oppressed countries, to people who have no other choice. And that's what matters.

I am optimistic and maybe I am na´ve, but if (not necessarily total) open-sourcing SA-MP will help it being updated, then I am in it. Because as is my answer to the title of this thread, yes, it is worth it.
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